Well said

You think kids would learn.. my brother is at home today because there were threats made at his (my old) high school this week and they sent everyone home...

I live right next to a university, they had like three bomb threats in less than a month, a few months ago. Since the campus is in three different cities, and evidently, whoever called them in didn't specify which campus, they ALL had to be evacuated. There's just no way a school official can ignore or downplay these pranks. The sad thing is, it's only going to get worse.

I gotta say you and I agree on most things but my opinion differs here. Much respect to you for being in the military and I am sure that the security you feel with a gun was bourne from that service.

I still disagree with people just carrying guns around in places like schools? The sole purpose of a gun is to kill, so I dont see why anyone would need to carry one in a college?

If I gave the impression that I thought college kids should be carrying weapons, than I stand corrected. There is definitely a matter of training and responsibility inherent in carrying a firearm. It's more a matter of kill or be killed. It's really as basic as that. It's self-defense. Here's the gist of my thinking: When push comes to shove, when it's a situation where it's your life or your attackers, I want to have a way to defend myself. That's EXACTLY what happened on that campus. It was a rampage by a sick, crazy, sociopath. But, if you were one of the ultimate victims, don't you think you would have fared better if you were armed? If even one of those students had a way to protect themselves, my belief is fewer students would have been killed.. I'm no gun nut, but the world is proving itself to be a very violent place. I believe my life has a value, to me, that exceeds it's value to anybody else. Therefore, the protection I'm willing to provide myself, will, by definition, exceed whatever anyone else is willing to provide. I can wish, I can hope, I can vote and I can pray that someone else will be willing to protect my life by sacrificing theirs if the situation should arise. But I guess I just don't have that much faith. The ultimate protection of my life is solely mine. That can be a hard truth to swallow, but to ignore that reality is to ignore something that's pretty obvious.
A weapon is sort of like carrying adequate insurance. Probably 95 out of 100 people lose money on carrying life insurance. Does that mean that they wasted their money? No. The odds that you'll outlive your policy are offset by the chance that you'll die earlier than expected. A weapon is sort of an equalizer.
But, I can see why people don't want to see more guns on the street. People are impulsive and unpredictable. Drinking, drugs and mental illness can't be ignored when it comes to using deadly force. Simply because there is no room for error. People are impulsive; obviously we can't have anyone who wants to tote a gun around be allowed to.
I think it's very hard for the average person to imagine himself or herself in a life or death situation. It's extremely rare and extremely unpredictable. But so isn't hitting the lottery for hundreds of millions. But people DO win millions in the lottery and people DO find themselves in situations where their life is literally on the line. As much as we like to think that it'll never happen to us personally, that's what everyone who is a victim of a violent crime thinks. It's a sure bet that not one student out of the 33 that got massacred thought that was their last day on earth. Not one. Having the ultimate defense is the only defense in a situation like this. I can't see anything else being at all effective.

Edit.... PM for stuff like this ....

CM

Closeup, unlike skullzombie you provide a compelling argument and I totally understand every single point you made in your post. I guess sometimes I can be an idealist and think no guns would equal no gun related killings but I know that will never happen.

If I was being attacked and it was my life or theirs I would love to have a gun in my pocket but I guess I will never be that type of guy. We have murders in Australia but a massacre such as this one is extremely rare and I truly do attribute that to our strict gun laws. That was the point I was ultimately trying to make.

I would live comfortable in the knowledge that you had a firearm which is I guess a result of your rights, but unfortunately there are very few people like yourself in the world it would seem.

(fuck im deep today haha)

Hey, I agree. I'd be completely comfortable if there were no guns, owned by anyone. It's a situation in America that's got completely out of hand. It doesnt have a simply solution. Anyone who thinks it does, doesn't understand the problem. For some reason, the US is a very violent society. Like everyone, I've heard that it's TV or video games or too much sugar in soda. But what ever it is, it's here. And to ignore it or wish it wasn't so, is not a viable option. I truly wish I lived in a country that wasn't so bent on self-destruction as the United States seems to be. But this is where I am. And being the realist that I am, I'll always try to find a solution that is effective as opposed to politically correct or popular.
To put it bluntly, I have a concealed weapons permit. Where I live isn't high crime at all. But, when the situation calls for it, I'm not gonna be caught off guard. Like I said, I've had training in the uses of deadly force. I've NEVER had to pull my weapon, either in the military or otherwise. But, if my life were on the line, I also know that I'd have no hesitation. I can certainly respect the idea that most? people have -that guns equal violence. But they also equal protection. A weapon is neutral, neither good or evil. It's the human brain that displays those qualities.

touche, but even you will agree that the gun is finding itself in the hand of the evil far too often.

Once again to me, it is another world. I know not one person who owns a gun, not one friend, relative, neighbour or friend of a friend. So to me, the USA's fascination with the firearm amazes me, but like I said, I totally understand your points and views

No doubt, guns are defiantly owned and used by citizens that shouldn't have access to them. I think we'd both agree that, as far as the U.S. is concerned, the horse is already out of the barn. It's gotten so out of hand, protecting yourself isn't just a good idea, it's almost a case of naivety if you choose not to. Anyone who thinks that they won't ever be a victim of a violent crime is either an unrealistic optimist or foolhardy. Not matter what your belief system or upbringing or religion: bad things happen to good people. That's a fact that I think is almost too obvious to state. It's not a negative outlook or a pessimistic one. It's just the way things are. I think people ignore that fact to their own detriment. Being armed isn't being paranoid, it's hoping for the best but preparing for the worst. And yes, it does suck that this is what it's come to. When I do a moving job, I literally have everything a family owns in my van. If I got robbed of my truck, my insurance would cover most of the monetary costs, but there'd be a family that lost everything. And people have been killed for a lot less that what I have in that van. What a depressing subject. But it is what it is.

The same planet but a different world

Where did you get these stats and the other one about then gaving a higher violent crime rate than the US??

The same place faeces exit his body!

Must be

the students were asking the news media to leave today so they begin the task to get back to normal , it should be our hope that they would indeed heed that and move out ...

Yeah, gun laws in the USA are just fine...

Child gets gun license

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Well maybe one day you will get shot

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http://www.csun.edu/~dgw61315/fallacies.html#Introduction

Do you think alcohol should be banned in Australia if a minor is involved in a fatal accident? Or do you think that responsible adults should be allowed to own and consume alcohol even thou thousands die each year from cirrhosis of the liver, domestic violence due to alcohol abuse and fatal auto accidents due to driving under the influence.

Web Results 1 - 10 of about 1,010,000 for "alcohol related accidents australia"
There's over a million hits on Google using those words. Ban it, or accept it?

maybe most of those hits are "alcohol related accidents" rarely occur in "austrialia.

but I think the point of the story is how the governing body who issues these things doesn't look closely enough at these things to think, "hey, should a 10 month old have a gun license?" regardless of what the law says.
accidents, shootings aside, if a 5 year old goes and buys a bottle of whiskey, there is a problem there, regardless if they were only buying it for their dad and not consuming it themselves.

but your points are taken too, unlike Skull's.

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"you're fuckin retarded"
-quote by gnappster

that one will go down in history

I can agree, but only so far. Where I have a problem is the phrase "regardless of what the law says". Say you just bought a new house, in a residential neighborhood. Two weeks after your closing, you get a new neighbor. He's just paid top dollar for his new home. But what he wants to do is raise pigs, 30 or 40 of them. Right next door. Naturally, you're not going to be too pleased with this new development. You think, "There's gotta be a law against this." Your neighbor's defense consists mostly of the refrain, "Regardless of the law." People want bacon, people want ham and pork chops. So, fuck it, I'm raising pigs. '" Your property value drops in half. But you have no defense because, "People love bacon, pigs have to live somewhere" Obviously, had you known of this was going to happen, you'd have never bought the property. My point being, one guys, "Regardless of the law", is another guys kick in the nut sack. The law is the only thing that let's you have ANY control of the future. And, as slight as that may be, it's really the only assurance a person can have that things are going to be dealt with in a fair manner. Maybe this should have gone in the rant thread but here it is anyway. I guess you could call me a "Libertarian" and for those of you who don't know what that entails, Google it.

That would be helpful if he could read.



Closeup I take your point. My point relates to the gun culture that has been bred over 100's of years in the states which leads to the acceptance of a 10 month old obtaining a gun license. It also helps to point out the lax, apathetic attitude the USA has toward gun control. If it is easy for this kid to obtain a license, basically anyone can slip through the cracks. What about a former mental patient obtaining a license and a legally obtained firearm?

I do think you are drawing a long bow between alcohol related fatalities and gun control. The fact is that drink driving is illegal. You get caught here in Australia, you get to visit the local jail, you lose your license, simple. Ban it? Well whilst underage drinking does occur there would be less than 1% of licensed outlets that would sell alcohol to minors because the fines they face are heavy!

I will say this though, at the very least I appreciate you understand the meaning of debate




bwahahaha

I wont debate , here the pig aurgument is valid I live in the rural midwest , farming community , the law says my neighbers can raise hogs as long as they stay 1/4 from my house , wel I now have 7500 hogs within a 1/4 mile of my house and hes getting ready to build and house 7000 more and theres nothing I can do , my 250,000 home is going to depreciate ,, and on days that the wind is from the east or the humidity is high we dont use our pool or hot tub cause it smells like shit outside and sure as hell dont leave during the day with your windows open on a warm day .. the point is they are protected by law , Im a farmer but I dont believe that I should be able to inflict undo stress on my neighbers as they do me ..


Do any of you know how many gun deaths there are in the US on any given yr ?

for comparison here there are on average 16000 . gun related deaths

a real point is In Illinois alone there are 115,000 deer killed by guns .. thats just in Illinois .. in comparison the gun deaths are pretty small .. that makes it no less critical I know but there are worse things that effect lives everyday ... Like these fucking fuel companys that are fucking us evryday we burn gas ..

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Good point, can't just make up laws to suit one's needs(unless you're a politician).
But it just seems like a passive attitude to take in such a case. Yes there was no law barring it, but maybe the people issuing them should have contacted the parent and asked if they really wanted a gun license for a baby. Maybe go to a superior and see if there is some loophole for them not to issue it etc. It just seems like an apathetic attitude to hand out a gun license to a one year old becasue there is no law against it. And that raises the questions, why the hell ISN'T there an age requirement. But that's another debate I suppose.
btw, I'm not familiar with US gun laws, but don't you need to take some type of safety course before you can buy a gun or have a gun license?

yes at age 18 and below

Underage liquor sales are a real problem in Portland. Here's part of an article from the local paper:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Alcohol sting sheds light on a source of the problem


Portland Press Herald (ME) July 27, 2004
Page A10


An undercover sting operation initiated by the Cumberland County Sheriff's Department has proven to be very worthwhile, not to mention disturbing.


The results of the operation showed that minors were able to purchase alcohol at liquor-selling stores in as often as 80 percent of the attempts that were made.

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Also, obtaining a license or permit isn't the same as actually owning a weapon. Yeah, I'd have a real problem with minors carrying handguns. But, as an adult, it's your right to be able to protect your own life. And if your life is threatened, it's comforting to know that you've got the means to defend yourself. Obviously, anyone in their right mind hopes that deadly force will never be needed. It truly does suck that this is what the world has come to. But I'm more of a realist than an idealist. I don't have to like something to accept it. Now it would just be my luck to be the first guy shot by a one year old. Kinda like Maggie shooting Mr Burns.

When you say underage sales of alcohol are bad in Portland, are the kids that are buying liquor 10 months old or 20 years old? IN the states it would seem you can own a gun license at 10 months, own a gun at 14 years, but fuck don't have a beer until you're 21 son!

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I honestly feel sorry for people who live in a country where carrying a gun offers peace of mind that one day it will save your life. Thank god I live in Australia. Shot by a one year old, it would be some sort of poetic comedy right? haha. I put this article up more to highlight the apathy by whatever association hands out these licenses and the apathy shown by the general community and their views on guns in society

to each there own , thats what makes the world go around !!!

the only thing currently you have to worry about in your country is dying for lack of water , it seems to be a fact that there is becoming a major problem .. I guess it could be from living with B,O due to lack of being able to bath due to water shortage .. either by guns or other means were all going to leave this earth in one way or another ..it doenst much matter how or when ..

as usual Americans only listen to the part of the news they wish to. Yes their are drought problems in my country but here is a free tip for you, I live in the City. Believe it or not they exist outside the USA. I am right on the coast where rainfall is plentiful! It is in the country where they need the water.

Moron

according to the news global warming is effecting it all , you yourself have quoted global warming in a another thread .. dont take it personal .. geez

Please tell me what global warming has to do with rainfall? It still rains despite the fact average temps might by slightly higher.

I am not taking anything personal, I am just pointing out idiocy. Do I have baths? No I shower. Redneck

LOl gotta love it

global warming is just that , its the effect of warming the oceans which in turns causes lack of rainfall and climate changes , I have some great articles I will place here for you later so you can educate yourself , i do study the drought In your fair country cause it directly effects the currnet patterns and future patterns that can effect the USA which causes stress to my life blood , my crops .. If the water supply is short in your fair country then Im sure there is rationing of water as several articles reflect , and weather you bath or shower they both take water .. It may rain but if the temperatures are higher then water (rain) will not stay around long and be able to be used or recharge the resevours were your water supplys come from . ITs called evaporation ..

http://www.smh.com.au/news/National/Gunman...9601326451.html


didnt think gun violence was a problem ?

http://comment.independent.co.uk/leading_a...icle2465904.ece


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_warming these might help educate so you can understand How critical global warming and its effects


to say that the drought only effects the rural areas is a misunderstood concept , if the food supply is interupted in any way shape or form then we all pay the price , By the prime minister cutting irrigation to the farms he jepardizes the farm economy and therfore the food supply , I realize Australia does import a large supply of food , but they need to export to help offset the costs of bringing in the imports or the change in supermarket prices in the cities will have a great effect on all ..


http://news.independent.co.uk/world/austra...icle2465960.ece

The lake we get our water from is 29,000 acres and 316 feet deep. Poland Spring water uses the same aquifier. What you'll pay $1.79 a liter for, I get out of the tap. They did a study last year when some "conservationists" were concerned that Poland Spring, which is owned by Nestles, was taking too much water out of the springs. Then it was determined that the amount they bottled and sold amounted to 3/4 of an inch off the top of Sebago Lake. There's so much water in that lake it would be impossible to make even a dent in it.

note to self: pee on the surface of sebage lake...

Explain why this year in the Sydney Metro area we have had above average rainfall? Not everything is explained with theories and science you retard!



I never said gun violence didn't occur in Sydney, all I said was I have never felt scared enough to arm myself just to go out at night.



What reports you may have read obviously are false. The Prime Minister has no say over farm irrigation despite what some hack wrote. I see I have to take the step to ignoring your posts again. I thought you might have mellowed but I see now that once a redneck, always a redneck.

oh and p.s I earn enough to affaord to buy my produce despite any possible rise in cost

Here is actually a sensible spin on the debate if you can be bothered reading it all, it highlights why I don't feel the need to bear arms whilst many Americans do...

Gun Laws - Australia Vs America

heaven forbid somebody read the sidney morning herald and learn soemthing you didnt know .. I find it funny when you can bash the USa but when somebody finds facts on your fair country which is a great place by the way you get all bent out of shape , I more then admit there is to much gun violence in the states however the point is your fair country has its own problems .. such as there emmisions of green house gas being double what any other country is which directly effects global warming . http://www.smh.com.au/news/environment/aus...9601374518.html


and I earn enough to pay for my food as well ,as well as the 4.00 per gallon gas that is coming but thats not the point .. DUH

If anyone's Poland Spring water tastes funny, you'll know who to blame. On a side note, one of my workers was eating an egg salad sandwhich from Tim Horton's and bit into a metal screw. Almost chipped a tooth. They gave him a five dollar gift certificate. Cheap bastards.

HEY-OH!

Canada has so much water I pour the stuff down the drain and spray it haphazardly all over my lawn.


he's lucky. if i worked there I would have made him pay for the screw.

damn the tooth fairy would have paid him more ...