So.. since I live where the church shootings happened and reading this... I thought I would have something to say, but I must be in a bad mood because all I can think of is what ass holes the people in Colorado Springs are. Honestly, they probably all carry guns down there anyways, and it didn't stop anyone. Anyways, bless everyone involved in all of this and let them find stength through the holidays.. I cant even imagine.

I really have to agree with Bondi. Have you looked at the gun laws in Japan?? Super, incredibly strict. Have you looked at their gun related crimes?? Almost nothing. I think it is really ignorant to try and argue that everyone should own a gun and I'm really sorry for the people that are that paranoid and convinced that they need a deadly weapon to protect themselves.

I too agree with Bondi - I mean here in Australia a guy killed 35 people at Port Arthur and within a short time even semi-automatic weapons were banned. The US has a constitution right to bear arms... but until they ammend that right (as the reasoning has long since stopped being an issue) unfortunately, US citizens also have the right to die en masse.

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Thanks Baby... I know this sounds very selfish but right now I am glad I live nowhere near where these things are happening and that I live in a country, whilst by no means perfect, a lot safer from mass shootings!



Yeah the Port Arthur massacre, what a sad day.

Almost immediately after we has a gun amnesty, no automatic weapons, no semi automatic weapons and very strict conditions on all other firearms. You basically had to live in rural Australia or be a certified shooter.

Sure there are people who still own guns and even semi automatic's but they are a lot harder to get on the black market than through legal avenues, and a lot more expensive. Meaning? The 15yr old twisted fuck of a kid who spends all his time in the basement cant just borrow daddy's and kill 20 of his class mates.



Mate you miss the point as usual. Which is why I said I wouldn't debate you, just state my opinion.

You live in a world of your own propaganda

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Something I saw on another website: Australians are learning the lessons of indiscriminate, draconian gun control laws the hard way. In 1996, a criminally insane man shot to death 35 people at a Tasmanian resort. The government immediately responded by passing stringent gun control laws, banning most firearms, and ordering their confiscation. More than 640,000 guns were seized from ordinary Australian citizens.(10)

As a result, there has been a sharp and dramatic increase in violent crime against the disarmed law-abiding citizens, who in small communities and particularly in rural areas are now unable to protect themselves from brigands and robbers. That same year in the state of Victoria, there was a 300 percent increase in homicides committed with firearms. The following year, robberies increased almost 60 percent in South Australia. By 1999, assaults had increased in New South Wales by almost 20 percent. Two years following the gun ban/confiscation, armed robberies rose by 73 percent, unarmed robberies by 28 percent, kidnappings by 38 percent, assaults by 17 percent and manslaughter by 29 percent, according to the Australian Bureau of Statistics.

I am all in favor of the right to own firearms, I believe if someone is going to harm someone they will find a way. It gives me a little sense of security knowing that I am able to protect myself and family if the need arises.( if I am able )

There are I believe alot more deaths caused by other means than firearms in this world

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/stor...71208/20071208/

This fellow apparantly had 3 previuos drunk driving convictions before this terrible crash...should we ban alcohol ( god I hope not )....it is a terrible thing to have happened and my thoughts go out to the people involved in these tragidies

people kill people one way or another

Mate what I am talking about is Mass Shootings. There will always be homocides. ALWAYS!

Also, the whole "gun to protect yourself" is BS. I have lived in Sydney (Australia's largest and inherently most dangerous city" all of my 26 years and I have not been shot, not been stabbed, never even really been in a fight!

Doesn't 35 people killed at that resort constitute a mass killing?

I'm curious where you found this...

http://www.haciendapub.com/edcor12.html

good information !!! even a rose has thorns !!!!


on a different note I have owned guns since I was 14 I currently have about 35 , none are automatic weapons , there are semi auto pistols and some semi auto rifles , but the highlight for me is Im 41 soon to be 42 and even with all these guns I have not shot 1 person , not even winged one , not even pulled one out to threaten somebody , my point is Normal people that pratice there right to keep and bear Arms in most cases so just that the Keep and Bear Arms .. Just My opnion

But it wasnt in a church or school or a mall ??????? A resort My heavens, what will they think of next !!!!

Yes, that was PRE gun laws being tightened in Australia. That happened, we have tightened our gun laws. Yes, there are still terrible things like rape and murder and robbery etc but we have not had a totally unprovoked, senseless massacre since.

In the USA in recent years
Columbine School massacre
The massacre of the Amish
VA Tech Massacre
2 or 3 church massacres
One shopping mall massacre


and these are just the ones I can remember off the top of my head

Ok, what I don't get is if you all are so respectable with your guns, why do you oppose stricter gun laws (assuing from this conversation that most of you do)? It wouldn't effect the law obiding citizens, and if you value your right to own guns soo much, then you should be willing to go through a little more to own them.

I know it wouldn't stop crime, but it would deter some crazies who know they can get a gun like that...

I myself dont oppose stricter laws , what i do appose is some politician that has no clue what is going on here in the real part of this country trying to pass a law so he can garner the vote of some bunny hugging , tree kissing person that has lobbied him to do so , people talk alot about automatic weapons , if you take a well trained Marine or even just a simple farmer that has played with guns most of there lives they can take a semi Auto or even a single shot and load it fast enough to shoot several people before they could realize what has taken place , Id really like to see them make it impossible to buy a silencer cause you can shoot a person from 150 yards away and all anybody is going to see is the person fall there will be no noise , so this could be done by single shot which is what most sharp shooters use .. The thing that really troubles me personally is if I wanted to kill a large group of people say at a church , I could easily steal a car sit and wait for church to be out and when they are exiting the church , walking like a good flock should you could take the car and mow down probably a minimum of 10 and probably more then 25 in a very short period of time same way with at a mall , or a resort or a school , getting rid of guns only rids one weapon this nutsos could use , next do we elimnate cars , trucks , buses , trains Etc. I am not tryign to aurgue with anyone but i do have a opinion like anyone else . Have a great day .

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Here, here....




What do you mean exactly with your rhetorical questions?

I would be all for stricter "people control" laws

Here's an example of a massacre being stopped by a woman who was carrying a weapon:


Jeanne Assam, a church member who volunteers as a security guard, shot and killed Murray, who was found with a rifle and two handguns, police said. The pastor called her "a real hero."

"When the shots were fired, she rushed toward the scene and encountered the attacker there in a hallway. He never got more than 50 feet inside our building," he said. "There could have been a great loss of life yesterday, and she probably saved over 100 lives."

Boyd said the gunman had a lot of ammunition and estimated that 40 rounds had been fired inside the church, leaving what looked like a "war scene."

She described how the gunman, Matthew Murray, entered the east entrance of the church firing his gun. “There was chaos,” Assam said, as parishioners ran away. “I saw him coming through the doors” and took cover, Assam said. “I came out of cover and identified myself and engaged him and took him down.”

Assam had several years of experience in law enforcement and is licensed to carry a weapon. She attends one of the morning services and then volunteers as a guard during another service.

If you take away the right to bear arms in America, mall shootings won't stop, church shootings, school shootings, etc. Those incidents have less to do with gun control than they do with problems we have in our society and culture. Even if there wasn't a single gun in America, people would go to malls and kill others with knives and bombs.

Interestingly enough, when I was in Costa Rica, you saw guns everywhere, people working in stores had them, a McDonalds employee had one, bank security guards carried shotguns. When I asked if things were dangerous, they said there was almost no violent crime, simply because if you tried to hurt someone with a gun, there was a good chance four or five would be pointed back at you.

I can also say for a fact that a gun saved my Uncles life. If he hadn't been allowed to own and have a gun, he would most likely not be here today.

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Just to point out, a very likely reason for some of those massacre's, is copycat syndrome. Which is brought on by the fact that when anything shooting related happens here in the US. It receives tons of media attention. This makes some of the loons out there see the attention people receive and desire it themselves. You see that in other countries that have these situations also.

Thats not something I thought up, that was from some lecture on criminology in psych or soc. back in college...

an old saying says .. ( LAWS CANT CHANGE HUMAN NATURE ) a good case for this being fact is people drinking and driving . speeding , driving without insurance .. etc.

Mate I see your point and it refreshing to debate with someone who can put his thoughts into words as well as yourself. I just have to ask one question though... what came first, the chicken or the egg? The gun saved x amount of people that day but without the criminal's gun, would the samaritan's gun be needed?

I am well aware of the copycat syndrome. I am a big Kurt Cobain fan and I remember reading of the dozens if not hundreds of people who committed suicide as a direct reaction to his suicide.

The question I pose to you is why does it not happen in Australia? We are a very similar society to the USA and these shootings usually lead the news over here, massive media coverage in print, radio and TV. No copycat's though?

My actual point was more of a numbers thing, 7 is a lot worse than 1, yet if you consider that 5 of those 7 were directly related to the 1st, it makes a little difference.

Really? All the times I've been in Australia, I always thought you had to dig a little to find any American news, perhaps I was reading the wrong papers and watching the wrong news. Still I think theres a difference in hearing about something that happened in the U.S. when you live in the U.S. and when you hear about something that happened in the U.S. and you live in a different country.

A lot of foreigners would chalk it up to "those crazy Americans"

Why doesn't it happen in Australia? Good question, I'd say tougher gun laws do play a part. God forbid though, should someone go out of there way to get a weapon and do something like that, then you could see another round of violence similar to what we have faced.

I mean why don't kids in Mexico shoot there classmates? I know for a fact you can get automatic weapons down there, no problem.

Sadly though, I think the US had a series of individuals who were determined to go out there and hurt people, they were going to do it no matter what.

Recently theres been a little more activity like this in Europe, and in some of those place, gun ownership in virtually nill.

Besides, tougher gun laws, and even removal of guns, is not going help. Not in this day an age. All it will do is take the guns out lawful citizens hands. And force more criminals to go through Mexico for handguns and South America for automatics.

Why do gangbangers have Mac-10's, pretty sure you everday citizen isn't supposed to have those, in any place.

Sorry, got a little long winded there. I'm not really an ultra-conservative, but this is one thing I do feel passionatly about.

And well done to you for standing up for what you believe in.

I have never lived in a society where gun ownership was a regular thing. I know a couple of guys who do own a rifle but they go pig shooting in outback NSW (There are a lot of feral pigs in the outback) but aside from those guys I don't know anyone who has a gun, it is just foreign to me.

I don't really chalk your predicament (your country's predicament) down to "those crazy Americans" but more the gun culture that you have been bought up with. To me guns are for the bad guys and the cops, where in the US it seems from the outside looking in that guns are for anyone... catch my drift?

Mate when were you in Aus? Get your ass back here and I will shout you a beer (buy you a beer)

Interesting side question? Is it legal to hunt Kangaroo? I know I saw a few places offering the meat, but in most areas it seemed that folks go out of their way to protect them.

And that's why you're a lot more reasonable than some of the foreigners I've dealt with.

I first went to Australia when I was 16-17 as a school thing and fell in love, been back twice... Last time was around... 16 months ago I guess... A friend was working with one of the big corps. in Sydney and had me out for a week.
I can't wait to go again. The U.S. is my home, and I love it dearly, but if I ever leave it's because I found a job in Australia. I'll tell you when I'm heading back again, hopefully in the next year or so...

You need a specific set of licenses to hunt Kangaroo.... Joe Blow down the road can't shoot Skippy but farmers who have problems with wild roo tearing up their crops can kill them. They are good eating too!

Ahh you should have told me, I might have been able to give you a few hidden secrets to check out, off the tourist path! Let me know when you are out again mate

Too bad they found out that he killed himself.

Oh Bondi.. looks like we're the only two here that share our opinion... which suprises me and scares me a little... haha.

I guess I just don't see the appeal in owning a gun for protection. I would never want to be responsible for injuring or killing a person, not even in the name of self-defense (Yes I'm as close to a "tree-hugging" whatever you call it... but for the record I've never hugged a tree).

I know that people will always have guns, but I'm possitive that if they were illegal or much harder to get, you wouldn't have your white suburban house kids shooting each other with daddy's guns or killing each other with the gun they paid their friend to get... The fact that guns would be harder to find would discourage some people.

So if you really want a gun then you should have to go through a hell of a lot to get one. If you're not willing to do that.. then you must not want it that bad.

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It's relatively easy to see merit in both sides of this debate. One the one hand, nobody wants to get shot by some nut who got ahold of a gun. On the other hand, nobody, (except evidently Baby) would want to be robbed, raped or killed and have no way to adequately protect themselves. I guess the question is; who is ultimately responsible for protecting your (and your families) life. You, or a stranger (cop, bystander, etc). I believe each citizen has a right to protect themselves. And with that right comes responsibility. The government doesn't "give" you the right to protect yourself, it's something you are born with as a citizen of the United States. (inalienable rights). Although you may pay for that protection thru taxes, it's a simple fact of life that the cops can't be there every time someone needs that protection. Then there are Second Amendment issues. The Founding Fathers were well aware of what governments were capable of. Disarming the citizenry was looked upon as taking away a citizens ability to stand up to a hostile government.

Baby I never thought there would be anyone who would agree on my stance with this issue, just because of the differences in our socities. Australia was never bought up on guns, my dad never owned one, neither did his father, or his father. yet the same can not be said for people inside the USA who hold on to their ancient constitutional right like it has any relevance or any merit in today's society. They feel like if you take their right to own a gun you take away all democratic freedom and it is something that will take a lifetime to being to change.




I'll keep stating it. I don't own a gun and I live in a city whilst it seems lovely and blue and dandy on tv commercials has an underground scene. I have never been shot and I have never though (shit I wish I had a gun right now)

Maybe that is the general difference here, the countries and societies we live in

Here's another way to think of it: You don't wear a motorcycle helmet everytime you ride because you're gonna fall off everytime you ride. You don't wear a life vest everytime in a canoe because you think you're gonna capsize everytime you go out. But the ONE time you need it, it's only gonna be there because you use it EVERYTIME. The one time you may need a gun, and don't have one, could very well be one time too many. Why bother wearing a helmet if you don't plan on crashing that day? Why wear a seat belt if you've never been in a fatal crash and have no intention of getting in one today? It's not a fatalistic attitude to want to protect yourself, it's a realistic attitude. Nobody leaves the house in the morning thinking they're going to be the victim of a robbery, rape, or stabbing. But, the fact is, it happens.

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I see your point but I will never agree I'm afraid. Guns aren't for me.

Can I ask you something? DO you carry a handgun everywhere you go?

If you ask me that is a fucking paranoid existence. I'd rather not live

No, I don't carry all the time. But I do have a concealed weapons permit. I'm armed when I'm carrying a lot of cash, or in a bad neighborhood, or whenever I think I might want the protection of a handgun. I'm not a gun nut, by any means. I've been trained by the Marines in the lawful use of deadly force.I've also taught Air Force officers and personal how to shoot both handguns and rifles. I ran the armory in a reserve unit in the Army. Not to toot my own horn, but I've been honorably discharged from the Marines, the Army and the Air Force.In all three branches of service, I've been involved with weapons. In the Marines, one of my duties was to guard the payroll. I would carry a satchel with $25,000-$35,000 dollars across the base where 2500 Marines had M-16 weapons in their possession. The base I was stationed on was where the "first response" of Marines would originate from if anything happened in the world that required an immediate response. These Marines DID NOT keep their weapons at the armory. When I was a Corporal, one of my duties was to guard the payroll after it got dropped at the base but before it got loaded onto a naval ship. I remember sitting all night with a weapon locked and loaded on five safes that contained $250,000 cash. Again, the base where every Marine had an automatic weapon with them. I guess my point is I've been in situations where being armed was not only a good idea but absolutely necessary. It would upset me tremendously to shoot another human being. But, and this is the key, it would upset me even more to get attacked and have no way to defend myself. When it comes to deadly force, having a second chance is not an option. I value my life to the extent that I don't want some crack-head who wants to steal my $50.00 sneakers for his next hit to be the one who decides whether or not I live or die. I know it's hard to understand why someone might be pro- gun ,but it's more a matter of being ready if the ultimate bad luck chooses you as it's next victim. I'd hate to miscalulate even once.

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If you thought for about two seconds about what I wrote, then maybe you'd realize that the whole process of getting a gun would discourage people. If they were at least somewhat more difficult to obtain, it would take the "appeal" out of it and someone who was going to committ a crime of passion wouldn't be as capable in most circumstances.



Yes, since I so said that I wanted to get robbed, raped or killed. There are other methods of self defence other than carrying a gun around that would be just as effective and less harmful. I feel more threatened by paranoid people such as yourself than anything else. I honestly doubt that you will ever run across an instance where you will need your gun. If you do I doubt that you'll be carrying it and have access to it in time to make any difference.

That's not really my point though.. my point, like Bondi's is that guns just aren't for me. My other point is that if you value your right to own a gun so much, then you should go through all the training, and background checks, and yearly checkups the government can handle to inforce. (sounds like you shouldn't have a problem with this since you've apparently already had training). I really don't see what the big deal is.

It always suprises me just how many people out here own guns/ are fanatical about their "rights." I've grown up in a family without guns and been around families without guns. My mother has even been politcally active in trying to get stricter gun laws. I just can't imagine seeing one or wanting to use one, let alone to hurt someone. I guess if you really feel the need to have one... that's your choice in this country, I just think the majority of people don't need to or deserve to carry.


I suppose I need to pack my bags and head to Australia! Sound good??

Well then that goes against your very argument. Do you carry it to church? Do you carry it when you have $2 in your pocket and you are just quickly going to the store to get some milk?

You said you never know when you're going to need it so I presumed it went everywhere with you? Know that I know it doesn't it makes your argument hold less sway.

You are obviously not the type of person I am talking about and I am sure you know that. You seem not only qualified but mentally stable enough to own a gun and hold enough common judgement of when and if to use it. I just don't like the idea of some dude sitting next to me having a coffee is carrying something that could kill me because I accidentaly glanced the wrong way



You're damn right you do honey!

Owning a gun in the USA looks as much like having a baby. Everyone is able to do it but maybe the bloody well shouldn't.

Owning a gun (and having a child) should be a privilage not a right

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[quote=baby21,Dec 20 2007, 04:48 AM]
If you thought for about two seconds about what I wrote, then maybe you'd realize that the whole process of getting a gun would discourage people. If they were at least somewhat more difficult to obtain, it would take the "appeal" out of it and someone who was going to committ a crime of passion wouldn't be as capable in most circumstances.
Yes, since I so said that I wanted to get robbed, raped or killed. There are other methods of self defence other than carrying a gun around that would be just as effective and less harmful. I feel more threatened by paranoid people such as yourself than anything else. I honestly doubt that you will ever run across an instance where you will need your gun. If you do I doubt that you'll be carrying it and have access to it in time to make any difference.

That's not really my point though.. my point, like Bondi's is that guns just aren't for me. My other point is that if you value your right to own a gun so much, then you should go through all the training, and background checks, and yearly checkups the government can handle to inforce. (sounds like you shouldn't have a problem with this since you've apparently already had training). I really don't see what the big deal is.


Well, where to start? First off, I can think of many instances where being armed is better than not. I might be driving a moving van into an area that is a high crime area. The truck I'm driving contains literally every single thing a family owns, except maybe a suitcase and the clothes on their backs. If someone were to rob me and get the keys to my truck, that family would lose everything. Insurance would cover MY loss, but not theirs. I do antique shows around the country. There are times when they're are items in the truck worth many, many thousands of dollars. (I need to carry two million dollars of insurance just to be eligible to carry these loads.) Do you think a crook wouldn't love to steal a truck with a that kind of pay-off? There are times when I have to report to the local police station and get an escort into the place where I'm unloading. I need to show them my weapon and carry permit so everyone knows that I'm armed.
And, Bondi is right. I don't always have a weapon on hand. I don't carry when I'm jogging or shooting hoops or just going to the beach or grocery store. America is safe in the sense that people don't need to walk around paranoid, but that is beside the point. I have a responsibility to myself to try never to be a victim of a random crime. It is not my intention to try to persuade others to act as I do. I'd be happy if there were less guns and more restrictive availability. There should be background checks and mandatory training. But, for the government( which, in reality, is just someone bureaucrat) to say that I don't have the right to protect myself, that's where I draw the line. They're not up to the task of protecting every citizen. How many times have you ever heard of a cop PREVENTING a rape or robbery? They always show up on the scene AFTER the damage is done. And, how much comfort is it to the victim's family to hear such platitudes as, " We'll do every thing we can to find the guy" or "We're sorry, we're doing all we can." And, I'm not knocking the cops, they're in an impossible position. It's simply not possible for them to prevent crime. They respond after the crime has been committed. I think that most people who feel "safe", are delusional to a certain extant. They seem to go around with the mindset of "It can't happen to me". But, it can and it does. I know I'm not going to change anyone's mind about guns or gun laws, but not everyone is in the same boat.

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Prove me wrong but showing me how many lives guns save rather than end? Please I beg of you.

In 2005.... over 10,000 people dies from homocide alone inside the USA. Show me where guns have saved 10,000 lives and I will eat humble pie. (and I mean at a civilian level, not law enforcement or military)



Mate I can understand your want and need to carry a gun in your line of work and if you feel as though you need to do so during other parts of your life that is fine. Personally I think it is paranoid but we each have our own opinions.

What isn't helping your case is the militant gun not above me sprouting all sorts of bullshit propaganda believed only by people of his ilk

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That was an interesting article, thanks for taking the time to post it. Here's another interesting point: Have you ever noticed when these nutcases go on their rampages, it's almost always a school or mall or church? In other words, where people are unlikely to be armed. You never see them shoot up a police station or an army post. Why? Because they know they are likely to get shot before they can kill anyone.
To answer Skull's question, I carry a military-issue Colt .45.

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I couldn't have said it better... I feel that the world would be a whole lot better with less children and less guns!! Oh well...

I don't really think this conversation is getting anywhere, but I suppose it's refreshing to hear the other side argued out. I will choose to respectfully disagree with you guys. I just hope you realize that there are people out there that feel safe without guns, and I don't believe that a live in a dilusional state. I just choose to be happy with my life and every minute of it so if and when something does happen to me I'm ready, whether that's a hundred years from now from old age or tomorrow from some serial killer...

I guess we just live life differently and hold some different views! I'm glad your gun offers you the protection and safety you feel it does, and out of all of this it is refreshing to see a responsible level headed gun owner.